Be Good Not Bad : Web Design :: Brian Warren : Denver, Colorado

Comments

1. I’m not a designer so take this for the uninformed opinion that it is.  It seems to me that if I was a designer looking for my big break these contests could function a lot like American Idol or the Aprentice.  I mean, sure a laptop isn’t a great reward for winning a contest seeing the work you put into it.  But that’s not all you get.  You get the prestige of having done Slashdot’s new site.  For a more established designer I suppose there’s little value there.  However, if I’m an up and coming guy, I could imagine that this would be a huge boost to my portfolio/resume.

   § #1 By John Mark at 8:01pm on April 26 2006

2. Well written, Brian. Sadly, designers face quite a variety of problems if they engage in these contests.

   The fact that there is any response to spec work makes people think a designer’s time and education are without value. Other trained ‘professionals’ don’t work for free, and designers shouldn’t either.

   Of course, those looking to expand their portfolios, gain recognition, or simply wanting to make a donation to a worthy cause can and should volunteer their time for non-profits or charities. But there is a big difference between volunteering for a charity and designing something for a company that could easily afford to hire a designer and simply doesn’t value them enough to pay them.

   I can’t wrap my head around the folks who recognize that they don’t have the talent or training to design something themselves, but still don’t think that someone else deserves to be compensated to do the work for them.

   In my experience, the majority of these contests are shady in other ways, too. Pariah Burke recently blogged about clients who use a designer’s concept design without paying (you can read it at: http://designorati.com/graphic-design/business-3/2006/
   coping-with-clients-who-use-your-concept-design-without-paying/) – the real value of a graphic designer is that he or she is an effective problem solver and communicator. Once the designer has developed the concept, some of these shady “contests” will take the concept and run with it, not even paying the so-called ‘winner’.

   Another article that is definitely worth a read is “Why Speculation Hurts” by Robert Wurth, as featured on no-spec.com (http://www.no-spec.com/?page_id=78)

   Be sure to read the fine print on the rules if you do decide to participate. the slashdot “contest” in particular was discussed on a forum a moderate recently, and this comment stood out:

   ”(the prize is) not ‘valued at $4500’. It’s valued ‘up to $4500’. Here’s a nice $500 Dell. What? You’re not ok with that after signing over all rights to all entries simply by entering?

   Read: http://slashdot.org/rules.shtml
   Read Section 12 C and G closely folks. They get you every time.

   There is nothing here that says he even has to AWARD the prize. He can cancel or suspend the contest at any time. But by entering you’ve given him all these free designs…”

   Spec work is the dark side of design. Turn away.

   § #2 By morea at 8:01pm on April 26 2006

3. @me –
   The fact that BBC’s contest is a bit different and that they’re only using it for research on their new design doesn’t keep it from being a spec work contest. They’re still using the entries, they’re only rewarding one entrant. They’re still encouraging people, designers or hobbyists, to contribute their work for free.

   I appreciate that BBC wants to spend more money on third party work. Still, this contest falls under spec work in my book.  The only difference between it and the Slashdot contest is that Slashdot plans on using the final work as the basis for their new design, while BBC is just using the entries for inspiration and will showcase the new design for one day.

   The only difference I see is that it isn’t as big of a deal if they get sub-par entries. Sure, the entrants don’t really know the BBC’s needs and haven’t built up a relationship with them to help solve problems and whatnot. But it doesn’t matter, because the BBC hasn’t committed to use the winning entry in anything beyond the “understand phase”.

   § #3 By brian at 8:01pm on April 26 2006

4. Read BBC’s FAQ

   They never said anything about actually using the design(s) in the contest and actually changing the homepage with it. They want to know what you THINK the BBC homepage should look like, by re-designing it so their designers can use it as a basis or even use it totally if it’s that good.

   All of course done to make a better, more personallised BBC, for you the USER.

   Please read these competitions and the fine print.

   Also this competition isn’t just for designers, isn’t for you to earn your living off of.  Some people are retired and compeition allow them to do something they have passion for, for fun and be rewarded at the same time.

   remember, it say redesign our homepage, not “redesign our homepage and we’ll actually use it”

   “So, what does your bbc.co.uk look like?
   What should its focus be? What kinds of ideas, concepts and services do you want represented?
   This is your opportunity to help reshape bbc.co.uk for the future, get noticed and win some great prizes too… ”

   2. Why is the BBC ‘doing’ reboot:bbc.co.uk?
   reboot:bbc.co.uk is part of the BBC’s wider investigation into what the future of our website should look like. We believe the homepage is a great metaphor for what we should be doing with the rest of our site. That’s why we’re asking people to concentrate on the homepage for this competition.

   The project is bought to you by the same innovation team who run backstage.bbc.co.uk. Like backstage, reboot:bbc.co.uk is an opportunity for you to get your voice heard, demonstrate your talents and enter a fun competition with some great prizes.

   5.Why aren’t you putting this project out to tender with UK web agencies ?
   At this stage we are not commissioning a BBC homepage redesign project. In BBC design language this is just our understand phase. We will be using this competition and a lot of other analysis to help us understand what bbc.co.uk should be…one day. This will inevitably result in projects where we will be consider partnering with UK indies and technology companies from the UK or the rest of the world. But not just yet.
   That said, the BBC New Media department is already substantially increasing its budget spent with third parties. For our financial year 2006/7 we have implemented a voluntary 25% independent spend quota as suggested by the Graf review and for projects such as backstage.bbc.co.uk, Innovation labs, Creative Archive, BBC Search and the upcoming BBC iPlayerr to seek partnerships with anyone be they teenage developers, design agencies in Soho or Sheffield or technology giants from California.

   It’s called research

   § #4 By me at 8:01pm on April 26 2006

5. the thing is, as with all contests:
   it isn’t always the best entry that wins.
   (in fact it seldom is…)

   so to me a employer who will hire me just because i won some random contest isn’t what i want. i want them to see that the solutions i came up with(yes, acording to a problem. and believe me, there is ALWAYS a problem)are good and valid.

   so to me the responses from “non designers” make the problem pretty obvious.
   without the education you will not be able to come up with apropiate solutions.
   (let alone being able to see the problem…)
   yes, you might win that contest(and the laptop) but you will only proove to them that they can get design for free.(thus devaluating the work of the trade)

   come on, it’s the bloody BBC. they can and they should pay for good design.

   so please, dear BBC, stop fishing for ideas. pay people that know what they are doing.

   § #5 By jAnsen at 8:01pm on April 26 2006

6. Though I’ve never been a big fan of design contests I can appreciate the value they bring to new designers. If I were just out of college looking to build a portfolio and get some recognition, I would consider entering one. However, I do think that designers need to think hard about what contest they’re entering.

   The Slashdot contest, for example, is one they should definately avoid (in my opinion). Slashdot isn’t looking for a design that brings them into the modern age and solves the multitude of problems that plague their site. They want a new look. Meaning they want to slap a new coat of paint on the Yugo.

   The BBC contest is different. They say in their blog that they will only post the winning design for one day, to give props to the designer, then will take it down. They also say they will not copy elements of your visual design in their final version. They will however use your ideas or concepts, just with a different design. I thought this was a unique solution.

   One thing I would like to see happen with these contests is a gallery showing every submitted design. That way clients could look through them and potentially spot your work.

   If you’re going to enter a contest, choose something that pushes your abilities. Design something that improves upon the original. Then your work will stand out.

   The fact is spec work and contests will never go away because there will always be designers willing to do the work. Hopefully, we can afford to pick and choose the work we want, and we can pass on the spec crap.

   § #6 By Hugh G. at 8:01pm on April 26 2006

7. I, like John Mark above, am not a designer but my outsider opinion is that the companies running these contests have no big design problems that need addressed. Slashdot is obviously not hurting for traffic. I dare say they could actually downgrade their design to black text on white background circa early 90’s and not hurt their business that much. In fact, it may even give them some more geek cred.

   There are certainly plenty of talented people on their staff who could easily make their site look pretty and that seems to be all they’re after. They probably just thought it’d be fun to see what amateurs outside of their offices might come up with. If they wanted a cocky, elitist designer to come in and tell them about all the problems he could solve for them with his mystical powers, then I’m sure they would have contacted you or one of your peers. They’re looking for Photoshop jockeys.

   The person who wins will most likely be a hack or a talented amateur just getting started. But don’t belive for a second that there aren’t idiot employers out there who would hire someone based on the fact that they won one of these contests. Designers who are just starting out cannot hope to compete with seasoned professionals. What they can do, in addition to honing their skills and trying to pick up small jobs, is enter contests and hope to at least get their name out there as someone who is ambitious and not motivated entirely by $$$.

   Your mechanic analogy is pretty weak in my opinion.  As you said, it’s outside the creative realm. The analogy would be more apt if the contest were, “hey, can someone figure out how to get our text to all line up along this one border?” It’s a more well defined problem and while there may be many ways to make that happen, the end result should always be the same (i.e. your car gets fixed) When’s the last time you brought your car into the service garage and then sat down with the mechanic for an hour as he discussed transmission rebuilding theories and questioned you on the finer details of how you’d like the work done? The way you described mechanics leads me to think that you’re the type that drops his keys on the counter and says, “give me a call when it’s ready”

   Slashdot just threw the keys on the counter. It seems to me that your beef should really be with the people who enter the contests and, in your opinion, devalue your trade. If Slashdot wants window dressing and can get it for a laptop, should they really pay a pro thousands of dollars just to honor the integrity of the design industry? please.

   Let the flaming commence, I suppose.

   § #7 By Bob Haley at 8:01pm on April 26 2006

8. I always think about entering these contests. It would be an excellent way for me to, hopefully, enter a market I’ve never been near before.

   I thought about doing the BBC contest. I thought about designing a template for the Typo contest. But then reality invades and I find that I need to finish that site that someone is already paying me to do. Precedence, no? I will pay my bills now and build my business the “old fashioned way”...on my own work and back.

   § #8 By Walker Hamilton at 8:01pm on April 26 2006

9. My two cents:

   Re: “no one will hire you if you do this.” That may not be true, but the idea that anyone is going to hire you because of winning is preposterous.

   Matt: your naiveté is really showing. First, this isn’t an “opportunity,” it’s a “slim chance.” You might win, but as Jg said, you probably won’t.

   If you have clients who you honestly don’t believe have a design problem, you’re not a very good designer. Them telling you they want it “Edgy or cool,” and you attempting to fit that bill is great, but as a designer, you really need to ask them good questions: What is it that you want to communicate. What values are you trying to represent with this work? If it’s an interactive design, you should be getting at what the user is going to need to get out of the interaction. What is the typical user like? Hell, even if it’s for a video and you the tell you, “Make it edgy,” you need to ask them, “Really? Is your audience going to respond well to that kind of thing?”

   There are always design problems, or design isn’t needed.

   § #9 By Andy at 8:01pm on April 26 2006

10. @ John Mark:

    You’d think this would be a good way to “break in”. There are 3 problems however.

    1. No one (read: no one) will hire you after seeing a pretty face you put on Slashdot. Having spec work in your portfolio will not increase your chances of getting a job with a good client (the kind you want). Jobs simply don’t come that way. Any client who thinks “Hey this guy did Slashdot’s site, he must be good”, is missing the fact that no problem was solved. No value was added. You just made something look pretty, and that’s not the job of Designers.

    2. Without an agreement with the client, what you produce, at best will be based on guesses and conjecture. The result will be something random that may or may not meet the client’s needs. By participating, you’re simply confirming the client’s misconception of design as “making things pretty”, rather than “solving a problem”.

    3. It sends the message that “Hey anybody with Photoshop can do this. In fact that’s all I am, a Photoshop Jockey. Just tell me what color to make stuff, and what font to use, and I’ll click the mouse for you.” That’s a question I get quite often from Non-designers when they like something I’ve done, “Hey what program did you use for that?” I like to tell them “I used Adobe Designer CS4. I used the ‘Good Design’ filter, and Viola.” I tell them that because I’m an arrogant snob.

    § #10 By Mark at 8:01pm on April 26 2006

11. Hell of a rant. The thing is, people love entering these things.

    “No one (read: no one) will hire you after seeing a pretty face you put on Slashdot.”

    I dunno mate. I disagree with you there. In many many companies designers are there to make shit look good. Companies have IA’s, Product managers, and various other cogs to fill the roles you’re implying designers need to fill.

    “Without an agreement with the client, what you produce, at best will be based on guesses and conjecture.”

    Slashdot has a pretty clear brief. The site is there. They know their market. They know their IA. They want a pretty face.

    And by the way, BBC specifically wants “guesses and conjecture”.

    § #11 By anson at 8:01pm on April 26 2006

12. I agree with just about everything, except this… <cite>“No one (read: no one) will hire you after seeing a pretty face you put on Slashdot. Having spec work in your portfolio will not increase your chances of getting a job with a good client (the kind you want). Jobs simply don’t come that way. Any client who thinks “Hey this guy did Slashdot’s site, he must be good”, is missing the fact that no problem was solved. No value was added. You just made something look pretty, and that’s not the job of Designers.”</cite>

    It might make more sense to say no designer will count you a worthy peer, but you can’t say no one will hire a person for doing spec work. The future client has no idea which items in a portfolio were done for a contest, pro bono, or for thousands of dollars. They’ll decided independently what they like or don’t like about a designer’s work and hire them based on that, I would think. At least that’s how I’ve gotten my work, not because of expensive portfolio pieces, but ones that happened to please a certain client in a certain way.

    If anything, I would say the real harm in contests like this is the damage it does to real designers trying to make a living. People start giving away design work and it makes it more difficult to charge what we do.

    § #12 By Natalie at 8:01pm on April 26 2006

13. “If you’re a designer tempted by a “free” laptop, think twice. No, don’t think, run. If you enter these contests, you’re telling companies and your peers that your work is worth a laptop or just $150.”

    To me it isn’t about the free laptop. It’s the opportunity to have my design used by the BBC. To do something I love that will be seen by millions and millions of people.

    If I were a designer, and I didn’t have any major client pieces, then I’d do it for free anyways just because it’s for the BBC Homepage. Thats huge for a college student or someone just starting out.

    You guys keep focusing on this “problem solved” aspect of design work. But there are a lot of clients out there that don’t have a problem that needs to be solved. As a video editor, I get this all the time at work. The client always wants something edgy or cool with no reason behind it or no problem to be solved. Sometimes just making the client look good is the problem to be solved…

    § #13 By Matt at 8:01pm on April 26 2006

14. Do you not trust the market? If most designers do not believe that contests are worth their time then the contest holders will have to increase their rewards to generate submissions. Until then, however, there are people that are calculating a positive expected return on entering such competitions.
    Sounds like Econ 101 to me.

    § #14 By Justin Makeig at 8:01pm on April 26 2006

15. These sorts of contests are no-brainers for me—I stay away from them. For one, I’ve got enough work from paying clients that I wouldn’t have the time even if I didn’t think they were a bad idea.

    As a new designer, or even an established one, to think that your work has a legitimate shot of being selected is naive at best. This isn’t American Idol for designers. This is a company shopping for ideas—and in all likelihood, walking away from the register with plenty of inspiration, but without paying for any of it.

    And I agree wholeheartedly that an overhaul of a high-profile site like Slashdot or the BBC is likely to be a very time-consuming project, and in the end, the value of a new laptop wouldn’t make much of a dent in the amount of (un)billable time spent.

    § #15 By Jg at 8:01pm on April 26 2006

16. I’ve stumbled upon this blog and I’ve been very interested in everyones thoughts.

    I submitted a design for the BBC ReBoot competition and I did it because of the following reasons:

    1. The prize
    2. Bragging rights
    3. I wanted to challenge myself

    Firstly, I carefully read the terms and conditions and knew that my design would NOT be used as basis for an actual BBC design. If it WAS going to be used, I probably would have closed my browser there and then. To think that the BBC would actually use a design from an ‘outsider’ supports everything No-Spec! is all about.

    I also felt that this competition was simply an exploration of ideas from the very audience they cater to. In some ways, this competition was actually user-testing. Much like the ‘wishlist’ areas of Adobe and the former Macromedia. The BBC simply wanted ideas – from their users – of what they would want to see on the BBC site.

    I also wanted a challenge. I am a graphic designer who spends 50% of my time designing interfaces and the other 50% on print based work. I wanted to see if I was up to the challenge of submitting a design that would be good enough to win. That’s where the bragging rights would then kick in (c:

    Don’t get me wrong. I too DO NOT support free-pitching. It’s bad for the industry. However I feel that the BBC competition was a bit of fun. They would have rocks in their head if they even contemplated adopting the chosen design. Furthermore, I would be MAD AS HELL if they considered my design worthy of replacing the current design.

    Cheers

    § #16 By Croops at 8:01pm on April 26 2006

17. A lot of people here have some really good points, on both sides of the argument, but I wonder if there’s just a little too much generalizing going on.

    My point is, whether spec (specifically in the context of contests) is good or bad depends on the contest being run.

    If a contest

    a) gives a purposefully vague creative brief such that no definitive winning criteria may be ascertained;

    b) does not allow contestants to keep copyright ownership of their material;

    c) does not explicitly state that the winner’s contribution will actually be publicly viewable in order for the contestant to reap the acclaim of their submission;

    d) and the prize is not a worthy compensation for the expected number of quality submissions…

    ...I’d say the contest is out to exploit cheap labour and should not only be avoided like the plague but boycotted.

    Here I emphasize the words “quality submissions”, because some submissions will, by law of averages, be of such a horrific nature as to invalidate any argument that “should the company have to pay for the work it would really amount to XYZ”, because most of the work would not be of sufficient quality to be paid for anyways. In this manner a contest is not so much different than contract bidding: some bids are great, and some suck. But on the whole, given that the top 10% of submissions might be considered of a suitable nature, times the number of expected submissions, the prize to be given should equal, IMHO, at least 25% of what one would expect to pay for the total number of hours for 10% of the participants to work on the project. So say the average number of hours for a redesign would be 50; 10% of 500 submissions is 50; and at a starter rate of say $20/hr US—that gives a prize worth $50,000 US. A little unrealistic, perhaps.

    So let’s try a different calculation. If a company were to hire a team of five fresh-out-of-college students to redesign their site, because budget is a concern and they cannot afford to hire design gods, what would the rate of pay be? Well, as a possibility, 50 hours x $20 US/hr X 5 people = $5000 US in prize value. That’s a plasma TV + XBOX. That’s two laptops. That’s a scholarship. A reasonable prize, one might say.

    So on the other hand, if the contest

    a) Emphasizes that it is an opportunity for young people to become known, and perhaps markets the contest to college students and people starting out in their career in order to aid them in increasing their portfolio presence, and maybe works with educational institutions to further this aim, so that in fact the contest is seen as a community-building endeavour by the company;

    b) emphasizes teamwork in the completion of submissions so that no one person hogs all the glory and team building skills are encouraged;

    c) allows contestants to keep copyright ownership of the work (with certain licensing retained by the company)

    d) lays out very precise and well-worded creative submission guidelines;

    e) uses the winning teams’ submission in a publicly viewable fashion;

    d) the prize is deemed a worthy incentive for the contestants…

    Then I’d say that it’s a pretty fair and worthy endeavour for a student or someone starting their career to consider.

    Sometimes the intent to give to the community of designers by promoting up and coming talent is there, but the organization of the contest is sloppy, and so the event gets placed squarely in the first category of ‘exploitative’ versus ‘community-building’.

    And for those of the better contests, the prize need not be money, or a laptop or technotrinket. It could be a full scholarship in the case of a learning institution. Or a lifetime subscription in the case of a magazine.

    Bad contests are too easy to spot to be worthy of further mention. But as an example of a ‘good’ contest, I recently helped host one. I am currently a teacher at a local community college here in Toronto Canada. Faculty at both Humber College in Toronto and the Rochester Institute of Technology across the border in the US decided that a friendly team competition would help the students learn some important team building and project execution skills. The entire student body in both colleges’ interactive programs were invited to sign up. Students who had shown aptitude in their design & interactive work passed the first round, so to speak, and were invited to join. Ten teams of four students, 20 from each college, gathered on the RIT campus for a three-day intensive. The goal: build a website that meets the contest criteria, in just 48 hours. The winning team got free books from New Riders & Friends Of Ed, and their work exhibited on the contest website and a wide screen display at the Humber College booth at FITC 2006, a major interactive conference. Now, the students did not receive any kind of academic credit for the work, and had to polish off (fix/debug) their project fit for viewing in their own time in between school work. They keep the copyrights to the work as far as I’m aware, and the college gets primo “real-world” projects to use as a promotional tool for itself. The students get exposure on the site and in front of hundreds of attendees passing the booth. Besides some really nice projects to put in their portfolio they might not have otherwise ever created. And they learned a ton of stuff. Everyone wins, and it was a great experience to be a part of. Turns out it was really tough deciding on the winning team, because every project was quite something. ( http://www.designcharrette2006.com )

    Now granted, this was in the context of an educational extra-curricular activity, but there is no reason that a contest cannot do as much for the attendees as the for the host organization.

    No two contests are alike. Not all are good, and not all are bad. You can usually tell the bad ones by how sloppy and transparent their charitable goals seem.

    I have seen both types of contests. Even participated in both types. And it all boils down to how much thought the organizers put into having the contest benefit the contestants beyond a mere dollar value.

    § #17 By joeflash at 8:01pm on April 26 2006

18. You’ve got me cracked up budy.
    Don’t spin the discussion around.

    How do you work that out?

    If No-Spec and alike (of course, not all of them have this attitude towards spec) are going around harrassing every single design related contest inorder to pursuade them to hire professionals like themselfs, that isn’t a move based on greed? Ohh.. oohhhh ofcourse not, because life revolves around a book, and if that book said hoodies = chavs then they’d all be locked up wouldnt they? but not all people who wear hoodies are bad, and not all contests are bad, which unfortunatly based on how they work (no point in a contest where everyone is a winner :rolleyes:) makes pratically every contest categorised as spec.

    Simply put, they are unhappy that businesses go up to them and expect to do work for free, yes that is bad… That doesn’t mean they have to suck the fun out of every design related contest which they could somehow pursuade hiring a professional (i.e. them with the highest of high ethics and morals) and secure yet another client frothemselfs where in alot of these design-contests ive seen isnt even needed (like the BBC one for example, There is no actuall need for a design, I doubt you’d harrase them if they simply askeded for a questionaire to be completed on how the site should look… but because it actually involved drawing it out visually, it’s not aceptable? puh-lease)

    I bet the No-Spec crew /the supporters who obviously has to promote their business by getting their link on the no spec is done out of honesty, not to grab these newly educated designer for themselfs eh?  If you’re a true supporter you dont need to tell them that you own XYZ design-related-business or tell them who you are, other than the fact that you are a designer, everything else is commercial exploitation of an honest gesture (to stop the bad type of spec work)

    Exactly like these people who claim ugly sells… Why do they do it? so they can make crap sites and get paid for it? or so they can educated businesses so when designer XYZ says hwo important a good design is which costs a 5+ digit figure is obsiously smelling of bull shit?  it’s the first one if you dontknow already … why do no spec do this?  ooooh so they can get themselfs more clients :rolleyes:

    No-spec should be an activity for the greater good, there is no need to associate you’re business with it… such methods only mean your trolling for extra clients.

    § #18 By me at 8:01pm on April 26 2006

19. “it’ll only worsen everything by making no-spec /designers look like greedy business men..”

    You’ve got me cracked up budy.
    Asking for an honest pay doesn’t make you a greedy businessman.

    Not paying for someones work and time makes you a greedy businessman.
    Don’t spin the discussion around.

    § #19 By Kristof at 8:01pm on April 26 2006

20. “Yes, we complain about not getting paid. I don’t know many other businesses that would be happy about not getting paid for something they did.”

    However, all contests fall under spec work as they require you to do something for nothing and reward only a fraction of the contestants.

    People enter contest all the time, funny how no-spec (the people creating the whole spur atm, and infact, anyone who complain about design related no spec-ness) is happy to bash all design-related contest but they are more than happy to watch those game-shows which exploit people (by making profits from the show) and don’t pay them a dime!  Where are all the anti-spec-tators waving their blood written banners i say?  This only goes to say how hypocrite-like all these no-spec people are.  You can’t ask for spec-work to stop when you are doing it yourselfs /supporting it!

    This whole spec-work business should be about designers being exploited – being expected to work for free with a speculative chance of winning /being paid, but it seems that is no longer enough, we need to go around finding anything which we could get paid for, and go on how they should be hiring us for £XYZ instead of running a contest and letting some people of all fields have fun /be reawrded for some pointless fun, but no… apparantly it doesn’t matter if the products for the contests are used or not..  If it involves design (and therfore we can get paid for it) lets complain how were not getting paid!

    Seriously, where is the argument against the BBC?  All this contest is about is to get information on how their visiters want the site to look like, to create that more personalised touch. This contest isnt for an end product (i.e. a re-designed BBC), it’s data gathering /research… Where does hiring a designer come into it?  there is no need for a designer because they DO NOT intend to actually change thier website (yet, when they do, they will be getting an agency). Therefore there is no argument against the BBC conerning exploitation /”spec work”.  It’s no differernt than those questionaire you’ve asked people to answer.

    In the case of designing a t-shirt which will be sold and you get only rewarded $200 IF you win, that is a differernt case alltogether and is something i do not support.

    I am not sure what your deal is with that but my understanding is No-Spec is a site to promote ethical businesses practices. The designers involved are taking time to DONATE their work. It wasn’t a contest to pick a logo from a bunch of designers. It was designer by a designer as a way for that person to show they support the cause. That’s called PRO BONO work.

    Oh such as spamming their website address on people’s websites is an ethical businesss practice now is it?  Wether or not the acused site is doing a spec competition or not is the case, people should be e-mailing the poster /personal messaging them.

    I’ve seen a few web site spamed with the no-spec link.. I doubt you’d want me posting on some farmer’s website “meat-killing-bastards.com” simply because im a vegitarian and they sell meat? I find it unethical, very dissrespectful not to mention an array of other things.

    Oh and so it’s ok for no-spec to have a logo contest but no one else because it’s considered donating their services to no-spec out of good will, for the better good?? that can be applied to almost any competition, hell the BBC falls into it more so than no-spec does.  No-spec actually used a logo and BBC is just gather valubal information on what it’s visiters like to see /look at /what they’d like the BBC to look like… Infact… The BBC is a service i pay for, so i’d say that I would actually want to have a right to say what it should look like, and now i have.

    Pro bono is exchange of services, the BBC gives alot more services out to people than no-spec…

    Sorry, no point you could make against the BBC or the BBC vs no-sspec would be valid.

    Unfortuantly No spec isnt a good thing, however just because the “fine print” makes a contest spec-work it doesnt mean it’s exploiting designers so untill you start realising that your all going to start getting negative impact on the internet(I’m | | near to making a no-spec “hate” site actually)by throwing a wobbily for no reason at all, it’ll only worsen everything by making no-spec /designers look like greedy business men..

    No point in telling people slavery is bad if your using slaves… it makes you look worse^ and as the days goes by i see more and more people getting pissed of with this no spec crap (when used in the wrong way /thing)… Its the same as this crap about ugly design sells… and now people are posting the truth, that ugly doesnt sell… this anti-spec /no-spec should sharpern up when they have the chance before they are truley embarrased!

    § #20 By me at 8:01pm on April 26 2006

21. “The only reason you all complain about spec work is because you do not get paid for the work you’ve done if you “lose”.”

    Yes, we complain about not getting paid. I don’t know many other businesses that would be happy about not getting paid for something they did. We shouldn’t have to do work in hopes of being paid. That is ridiculous. I don’t expect that from other businesses I go to. Why should they expect the same from me? If we want the world to take designers seriously then we need to show that we are professionals. Not just hacks with a box of crayons.

    Spec work belittles our profession. It shows that some do not take us seriously. Fighting that is our right and should be done. We deserve to be treated like professionals.

    “Now, why dont we go bash the people who actually claim to be professional web designers, which cant make standard-complaint webpages let alone decent looking one like the people at no-spec, who funnily enough website /logo was created un a “spec workd” basis.”

    I am not sure what your deal is with that but my understanding is No-Spec is a site to promote ethical businesses practices. The designers involved are taking time to DONATE their work. It wasn’t a contest to pick a logo from a bunch of designers. It was designer by a designer as a way for that person to show they support the cause. That’s called PRO BONO work.

    Maybe that’s the issue. Maybe people need to not look at what can I gain from a contest and look at where can I donate my time to a worthy cause. Take the time you are throwing away at contests and spec work and give it to REAL non-profit companies that NEED and DESERVE your help. I think employers and clients would look at that as a plus.

    § #21 By Jake at 8:01pm on April 26 2006

22. The only reason you all complain about spec work is because you do not get paid for the work you’ve done if you “lose”.

    However, you’re all forgetting the fact that the part which makes it “spec work” could be an arry of things including the “end product”; say a 1 year contract for a bluechip company.  Could the 5 designers participating be paid their hourly rate and it will still class as spec work? yes it does becuase actually getting the contact is still speculative /isnt guaranteed.

    I dont think any one of you would complain because dispite lossing, it’s no differernt than work-for hire you normally do, now would you?

    Now, what does this all mean? the hate against spec work is the fact you lose out on part of your earnings (mainly your “livings”) by taking that chance and accepting the “deal”.

    However, you have to remember the fundimental rules, mainly based on the fact the BBC gets it revinue from TV licensing and so the whole company is a giant community based business and so feed back from the community it’s there to serve is important.  They could easily just throw a questionaire together but how good would that be?  Instead they’ve decided to reward people for thier valueble input rather than none at all.

    The only reason they take away your rights to use the design is purly based on the fact that you are infact suggesting the BBC site look like it… So what happen if research /end product happen to look like any one of the submitted design even if they never saw it / differernt company created? Oh yeah the get SUED.

    When you ask you fellow designers to answer questionaires or give ideas for that project YOU’RE getting paid for ‘cause afteall you are a “professioanl” designer… that isn’t spec work? nope but it’s just as bad – there isnt that “end product” which therefore makes it spec work but your still getting the same out come and giving no rewards.

    In reality, you’re all being selfish and acting like hypocrites.  Aslong as things do not equal loss of pay, your happy.

    The BBC contest is not there to actually change the BBC website and get a free make over, and any of you bashing it are total idiots because by doing so you are only proving how little you know about business, the so called design industry your in and more… Way to make yourself look like “professional” designers. The bulk of it all isn’t about being professional its about guaranteeing you can get paid anywhere you go by making business realise “this is the way to do things” by putting presure and claiming it is unprofessional.

    What your doing is pretty much in the intrest of yourselfs.  No one really wants to work for free, however claiming anything speculative is bad is just plain stupid.  What you are doing is the same as the designer who claim “ugly sells”

    Get over it, not all spec work is bad, especiall when the spec work is research based / not an actually used product therfore ripping you off IS NOT BAD.. Infact, many of you have done this but of course it s not spec work because it was a “personal request” where all you “internet buddies” were more than happy to help….

    Now, why dont we go bash the people who actually claim to be professional web designers, which cant make standard-complaint webpages let alone decent looking one like the people at no-spec, who funnily enough website /logo was created un a “spec workd” basis.

    HAve fun, get a life, cheers.

    § #22 By bunny at 8:01pm on April 26 2006

23. Slashdot’s announced the winner of their contest. Here’s the guy’s writeup on his own site:

    http://summit.makalumedia.com/2006/05/30/the-slashdot-redux/

    § #23 By Jg at 8:01pm on April 26 2006

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